The fact that non-credible sites like “barstoolsports” picked up the story says nothing about the credibility of the New Zealand Herald or other, credible sources with good reputations for fact-checking.

Also, your comment looks like it was written by ChatGPT. Was it?

Nope, it’s the 20th.

I don’t give a shit what it was supposed to stand for, it now stands for that.

It’s the day a bloated orange fascist takes over the federal government of the United States.

I’m going down a rabbithole? You’ve entirely bought into North Korean propaganda and believe a city they literally use as a showcase for foreigners to lie about life in the country is somehow representative of the country, and I’m the one going down a rabbithole?

Surely at some point you’d realize, “Wait I’ve been fed lies.” Nobody can seriously believe that Pyongyang isn’t a propaganda piece.

Foreign visitors are given strict routines and routes they must follow, with government minders at all times to prevent them from photographing anything they don’t want seen or talking to people who they aren’t approved to talk to. Of course it looks good in the photos and videos that are allowed out, because it’s a carefully constructed and orchestrated falsehood.

But even in that, it fails, because of what’s so obviously missing from Pyongyang that you find in pretty much any other major city.

Ever been to an actual large and well-off city that isn’t in a despotic dictatorship? Paris? Tokyo? London? New York? Mexico City? Toronto? If you’ve ever been to any city like those, you’ll find you don’t have government handlers, can take photos of anything you want, there is traffic on the streets of all sorts, there is music, there is entertainment, parts of the city will be dirty while others are beautiful, and no one is putting on a performance for you.

This is a photo of downtown Pyongyang:

Do you see what’s missing? That’s the largest city in the country, in the middle of the day. A four-lane street cutting right through the heart of the city - and it’s nearly empty of traffic. The street next to it clearly has more people in it, but most are on foot.

The image of the city as presented to people like your friends that have been there really is a lie. Not everything, of course… I mean, people do live, work, and go about their lives there, too. Obviously. There’s a great uncut video of a drive through Pyongyang here that highlights that fact - just people, living their lives. It matches pretty well with the video you shared, too. Real people, walking the streets of Pyongyang. No dispute there.

But both videos also highlight how weird the city is, with the regular propaganda street-signs, the fact that the streets are far over-built for the traffic that they carry, the sparseness of all forms of traffic (seriously, the parts of the videos that are most densely packed with people still look less active than cities 1/10th Pyongyang’s size), the weirdly identical brutalist apartment buildings everywhere… And then, once the driving video leaves downtown Pyongyang, cars basically vanish from the street (which becomes much more poorly maintained). It becomes apparent that people are walking - likely for hours - to get to and from their places of work.

Other things I looked for and didn’t find in either video:

• Cafes. There are no cafes visible in either one, anywhere. There are a couple street food vendors, and that’s basically it.
• Windows. There are no businesses or organizations of any sort with windows that would let anyone see in or out. Watch a bike tour of Paris to see what an incredible difference windows make.
• Shopfronts. I don’t doubt there are businesses in Pyongyang, but you will not be able to identify any of them from either your bike ride video or my drive through video. You’ll see very few signs (except for propaganda posters of Kim Il Sung), lots of faceless, nondescript buildings, and tons of brutalist apartments.
• Teenagers. I didn’t see a single person who looked like a teenager in either video. That’s not to say I don’t think they exist there, of course, but usually in a vibrant city you’ll see people of all ages.
• Architectural variety. Every building looks like it basically follows the same design pattern.
• Clothing variety. Most people in both videos were wearing basically similar outfits. I noticed in the bike video several women wearing identical coats.
• Shopping bags. In any other large city, you would expect to see people coming or going from shopping expeditions. Not one person that I could find in either video looked like they were going shopping. Maybe the woman at 4:45 in the pink coat in the bicycling video, though those didn’t really look like shopping bags. She was also one of only a small number of people I saw wearing anything colorful at all. (Another was right at the beginning of the bike video).
• Art. As far as I could tell, there is no street art anywhere in Pyongyang with the exception of things like monuments to Kim Il Sung. No sculptures, no murals, not even any flower gardens. Maybe they exist in other parts of the city, but they were certainly not visible in either video.
• Music. At about 50 seconds in, there is music briefly audible in this Paris bike ride. There is never any music audible at any point in the Pyongyang bike ride. (I happen to like this particular Paris ride video because it shows the city, good parts and bad.)

Seriously, watch any video of a driving or bicycling tour through nearly any major city in any other country, and you’ll see astonishing differences. It’s impossible to watch your friend’s video or the driving video I shared and conclude that’s a thriving city when compared to cities like Tokyo or Paris.

January 20th, 2025.

I try to take heart in the fact that the majority didn’t actually vote for him, but it’s cold comfort, considering so many couldn’t be bothered to vote at all.

We’re kinda fucked.

Those responsible for sacking the people who have just been sacked, have been sacked.

Pyongyang is not North Korea. It’s a Potemkin village designed to present a false image to the rest of the world.

And it’s hilarious to accuse me of jumping to conclusions when all I’ve been saying is that RFA is credible and we don’t have a reason to believe they’re lying about this.

If we end up with evidence that they’re lying, I’ll happily remove the post.

The problem with reporting on the DPRK is that information is extremely limited on what is actually going on there. Most reports come from defectors, and said defectors are notoriously dubious in their accounts, something the WikiPedia page on Media Coverage of North Korea spells out quite clearly.

That Wikipedia page is deeply problematic. Do you know who Felix Abt is? He’s one of a few businessmen who went into business in North Korea specifically to get rich off the backs of slave labor there, pioneering the use of the “China +1” strategy to avoid export restrictions for items that are partially manufactured in North Korea and subject to sanctions.

And as you yourself point out, he’s the source on a lot of attempts to whitewash the North Korean government’s treatment of people.

Because of these issues, there is a long history of what we consider legitimate news sources of reporting and then walking back stories. Even the famous “120 dogs” execution ended up to have been a fabrication originating in a Chinese satirical column, reported entirely seriously and later walked back by some news outlets. The famous “unicorn lair” story ended up being a misunderstanding:

I’m not saying that news reports never get it wrong, but do you have reason to believe this report is wrong?

Regarding the haircuts, you are correct that they weren’t specifically state-mandated, but this really did happen. In 2005, they really did run a series on state television called, “Let us trim our hair in accordance with Socialist lifestyle.”

You can watch it online yourself if you look for it, so don’t pretend it didn’t happen.

Finally, the fact that Radio Free Asia and Radio Free Europe receive U.S. government funding doesn’t mean their stories are fictitious. RFA has a sterling fact-checking record.

I looked at the GDP, both nominal and per capita, for both countries. North Korea’s is nowhere near Haiti’s. North Korea is not wealthier.

Are you saying RFA isn’t a branch of US interests? I have never heard anyone make that claim before.

No, I’m saying that their reporting and fact-checking is credible.

38north.org is a pretty decent source on North Korean news.

Yes, it certainly appears to be.

You have the burden of proof backwards: WHY would anyone believe that “hot dogs are banned in North Korea”. It simply makes no sense. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

Because North Korea’s dictatorship has a well-documented history of atrocities and bizarre, freedom-limiting proclamations. Heck, it’s well-known for banning foods that it considers contrary to its culture, such as sushi, and it’s hard to imagine a more western food than hotdogs.

There’s no reason to think the story is credible. I’ve searched it and it appears RFA posted it in November, then The Sun picked it up 3 days ago. Then various repeaters.

And RFA is credible.

Questioning the story is fine. Brigading isn’t, and failing to actually attack the credibility of the reporting isn’t.

Yes, the origin of the story is the Sun, but until there’s a reason not to trust it, the fact-checking by other, less tabloid-y outlets that have also carried the story seems trustworthy.

The story is also well within the norm for the behavior of the North Korean dictatorship.

Do you have an actual reason to suspect the story is false? Post it here. I won’t delete it if you credibly back your claims up.

And none of them back those claims up. Or actually attack the credibility of the story.

Now then, are you here to defend Kim Jong Un too?

For the record:

• The New Zealand Herald is a credible source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/new-zealand-herald/
• Radio Free Asia is a credible source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/radio-free-asia/
• Kim Jong Un is a brutal dictator who starves the people of North Korea, and news stories that document his atrocities aren’t racist.
• If you want to come to this sub to argue in favor of fascist regimes, don’t be surprised when your account is banned and your content is removed.
• The story stays. It’s from a legitimate news source, and it’s a very bizarre, Onion-y headline.

Every pro-North Korea post was coming from a group of accounts that all post to the same anti-Western and pro-fascism subs on .ml. I’ve banned the lot of them, and don’t feel the slightest twinge of remorse about it.

On closer inspection, everyone who claimed it’s fake is from .ml, and they all post to the same anti-western, pro-fascist subs. I think they’re brigading everywhere this story got posted.

I’ll be banning the lot of them shortly.

Ah. So you don’t actually have any credible citations to back up your contentions about RFA, you just don’t like them saying true things that put North Korea (!) in a negative light.

Weird to go to bat for an insane dictator, but hey, you do you.

Or rather, I should say, you do you somewhere else. Not here. Bye.

Please provide backing for claims that this story is fake and that Radio Free Asia is not credible.

It is absolutely a credible source.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/radio-free-asia/

I’m not sure what Porcupine is going on about.