I thought it’s widely-agreed that gender dysphoria is a mental illness. The debate lies in how to treat it—try to realign the body with the mind or the mind with the body.
It may seem like a pedantic difference but you are missing a key part of what’s going on here. Nobody is challenging that gender dysphoria is a bad thing to experience… This policy is saying it’s kosher to proclaim “transness is a mental illness” which means in effect that encompasses gender euphoria and all expressions of gender incongruity as symptoms of a mental illness. It’s a subtle linguistic difference but one makes it possible to publicly derride trans people as being delusional or harmful to people around them or dangers to themselves and push for “curing” all transness by approaching being trans as a failure state.
Actually that’s a common misconception - while gender dysphoria is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) - it’s not actually a mental disorder (similar to how the DSM includes physiological and environmental issues like Insomnia or Social Exclusion) - main reason it’s there is for admin purposes and to facilitate treatment access.
However, a condition like body dysmorphia (think Anorexia Nervosa) is considered a mental disorder because the issue is the mind incorrectly perceiving the body - therefore it can be treated using psychotherapy which enables the mind to correctly perceive the body and prevent harm.
People who experience gender dysphoria on the other hand - actually correctly perceive their body (that’s where the distress comes from) so psychotherapy doesn’t work to alleviate this - as you can’t therapy away an accurate perception (think gay conversion therapy)
Which is why after many decades of research the only treatment that’s been found to work is aligning the body with the mind - as at that point the mind continues perceiving the body correctly but this time it’s congruent with it’s mental model which alleviates the distress.
Which is why after many decades of research the only treatment that’s been found to work is aligning the body with the mind - as at that point the mind continues perceiving the body correctly but this time it’s congruent with it’s mental model which alleviates the distress.
Just because the best treatment involves physical alteration doesn’t change whether it’s a mental disorder. You don’t classify disorders by how they’re addressed, you classify them as where they occur. Whether we term it a disorder, incongruence, etc, the fact remains that the distress happens in the mind.
That said, not all disorders (or whatever you want to call them) need to be “fixed” (i.e. made to be in line w/ the majority), they’re merely a way to distinguish one group of the population from another. Sometimes the best treatment is no treatment, sometimes is physical alteration, sometimes it’s medication, and sometimes it’s psychotherapy.
The average person shouldn’t really care what treatment option an individual chooses to alleviate their symptoms, and the “best” option can very well vary by person. Whether we call it a “disorder” isn’t the issue, the issue is the social impact of assigning a label (i.e. how others react to it). So to me, calling it a disorder should never be against any forum rules, the rules should instead focus on banning harassment, and calling it a disorder could constitute harassment given context.
So why leave this comment? You yourself identify the
social impact of “assigning a label (i.e. how others react to it)” - so for what purpose are you arguing for what labels are to be assigned?
Can you not just accept that the people impacted by this label (and the scientific community) have recognized that this label is harmful to individuals and not feel the need to chime in?
Or do you feel your desire for pedantry is more important than the negative impact such a label can have on marginalized groups?
What’s gained by insisting on potentially harmful labels?
Even by your own admission, labels have social impact. So why are you choosing to argue for harmful ones?
EDIT: If you’re actually arguing for better acceptance of people with mental disorders - I would recommend volunteering at a mental health institution or defending people’s right to self-determination.
for what purpose are you arguing for what labels are to be assigned?
I believe in freedom of speech, and I don’t think any particular phrases, terms, or verbiage is absolutely unacceptable.
If you ban certain words, people will just substitute them for others with the same underlying meaning. Look at how people dance around YouTube’s TOS to communicate the same thing without using certain words (unalive, “super mario brothers,” etc). Banning people for using certain terminology or discussing certain topics completely misses the point, which is eliminating intolerance.
this label is harmful
It’s not the label that’s harmful, it’s the intent and meaning behind it. Policies for a platform should be based on the root of the issue, not the symptoms.
So your argument is “people will break the rules so we shouldn’t have any rules because it doesn’t matter”?
This is the classic nazi bar argument - which has been proven time and time again that “free speech absolutism” consistently leads to spaces becoming hostile to marginalized groups
I see you have your heart in the right place but by insisting on everyone having equal rights to say anything - you are inherently favoring the oppressor over the oppressed.
I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement so I’ll stop replying as this feels futile to argue over.
“free speech absolutism” consistently leads to spaces becoming hostile to marginalized groups
It’s not the free speech that causes it, it’s that “free speech” is being used as a weapon to tolerate intolerance. You can tolerate Nazi insignias in a bar w/o tolerating Nazis, you throw people out who are intolerant, and let those remain who are respectful. In fact, I would love to go to a WW2-themed bar with a mix of historical symbols and whatnot from all sides of the war (Nazis, Japanese Imperialists, Allies, etc) where nobody tolerates actual Nazis.
I want a space where I can discuss things that are uncomfortable without fear of getting banned. That’s what I’m after when I push for free speech.
Zeezee already has a great reply. I’d also like to add that gender dysphoria isn’t the same as being trans, it’s possible to be trans and not have dysphoria
It’s a crazy concept to apply “science of the times” to only psychology, but not every other branch of science and medicine, as there are huge holes in understanding everywhere.
I have no idea what sciences would be considered “hard” in this definition.
While in physics, we can fundamentally change our theoretical understanding of very core concepts without impacting the reproducibility of experiments, and any new theory must also satisfy existing, reproducible experiments.
Same goes for chemistry, computer science, geology, etc. You can discover differences in core, fundamental concepts without invalidating existing experiments.
I thought it’s widely-agreed that gender dysphoria is a mental illness. The debate lies in how to treat it—try to realign the body with the mind or the mind with the body.
It may seem like a pedantic difference but you are missing a key part of what’s going on here. Nobody is challenging that gender dysphoria is a bad thing to experience… This policy is saying it’s kosher to proclaim “transness is a mental illness” which means in effect that encompasses gender euphoria and all expressions of gender incongruity as symptoms of a mental illness. It’s a subtle linguistic difference but one makes it possible to publicly derride trans people as being delusional or harmful to people around them or dangers to themselves and push for “curing” all transness by approaching being trans as a failure state.
Actually that’s a common misconception - while gender dysphoria is listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) - it’s not actually a mental disorder (similar to how the DSM includes physiological and environmental issues like Insomnia or Social Exclusion) - main reason it’s there is for admin purposes and to facilitate treatment access.
However, a condition like body dysmorphia (think Anorexia Nervosa) is considered a mental disorder because the issue is the mind incorrectly perceiving the body - therefore it can be treated using psychotherapy which enables the mind to correctly perceive the body and prevent harm.
People who experience gender dysphoria on the other hand - actually correctly perceive their body (that’s where the distress comes from) so psychotherapy doesn’t work to alleviate this - as you can’t therapy away an accurate perception (think gay conversion therapy)
Which is why after many decades of research the only treatment that’s been found to work is aligning the body with the mind - as at that point the mind continues perceiving the body correctly but this time it’s congruent with it’s mental model which alleviates the distress.
Hope this helps :)
Just because the best treatment involves physical alteration doesn’t change whether it’s a mental disorder. You don’t classify disorders by how they’re addressed, you classify them as where they occur. Whether we term it a disorder, incongruence, etc, the fact remains that the distress happens in the mind.
That said, not all disorders (or whatever you want to call them) need to be “fixed” (i.e. made to be in line w/ the majority), they’re merely a way to distinguish one group of the population from another. Sometimes the best treatment is no treatment, sometimes is physical alteration, sometimes it’s medication, and sometimes it’s psychotherapy.
The average person shouldn’t really care what treatment option an individual chooses to alleviate their symptoms, and the “best” option can very well vary by person. Whether we call it a “disorder” isn’t the issue, the issue is the social impact of assigning a label (i.e. how others react to it). So to me, calling it a disorder should never be against any forum rules, the rules should instead focus on banning harassment, and calling it a disorder could constitute harassment given context.
So why leave this comment? You yourself identify the social impact of “assigning a label (i.e. how others react to it)” - so for what purpose are you arguing for what labels are to be assigned?
Can you not just accept that the people impacted by this label (and the scientific community) have recognized that this label is harmful to individuals and not feel the need to chime in?
Or do you feel your desire for pedantry is more important than the negative impact such a label can have on marginalized groups?
What’s gained by insisting on potentially harmful labels?
Even by your own admission, labels have social impact. So why are you choosing to argue for harmful ones?
EDIT: If you’re actually arguing for better acceptance of people with mental disorders - I would recommend volunteering at a mental health institution or defending people’s right to self-determination.
I believe in freedom of speech, and I don’t think any particular phrases, terms, or verbiage is absolutely unacceptable.
If you ban certain words, people will just substitute them for others with the same underlying meaning. Look at how people dance around YouTube’s TOS to communicate the same thing without using certain words (unalive, “super mario brothers,” etc). Banning people for using certain terminology or discussing certain topics completely misses the point, which is eliminating intolerance.
It’s not the label that’s harmful, it’s the intent and meaning behind it. Policies for a platform should be based on the root of the issue, not the symptoms.
So your argument is “people will break the rules so we shouldn’t have any rules because it doesn’t matter”?
This is the classic nazi bar argument - which has been proven time and time again that “free speech absolutism” consistently leads to spaces becoming hostile to marginalized groups
I see you have your heart in the right place but by insisting on everyone having equal rights to say anything - you are inherently favoring the oppressor over the oppressed.
I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement so I’ll stop replying as this feels futile to argue over.
EDIT: Just FYI this is what you’re defending in this instance
It’s not the free speech that causes it, it’s that “free speech” is being used as a weapon to tolerate intolerance. You can tolerate Nazi insignias in a bar w/o tolerating Nazis, you throw people out who are intolerant, and let those remain who are respectful. In fact, I would love to go to a WW2-themed bar with a mix of historical symbols and whatnot from all sides of the war (Nazis, Japanese Imperialists, Allies, etc) where nobody tolerates actual Nazis.
I want a space where I can discuss things that are uncomfortable without fear of getting banned. That’s what I’m after when I push for free speech.
deleted by creator
Zeezee already has a great reply. I’d also like to add that gender dysphoria isn’t the same as being trans, it’s possible to be trans and not have dysphoria
It depends on the “science of the times.” Crazy concept, I know.
It’s why psychology is considered a “soft science” and doesn’t deserve the authority that hard sciences have.
It’s a crazy concept to apply “science of the times” to only psychology, but not every other branch of science and medicine, as there are huge holes in understanding everywhere.
I have no idea what sciences would be considered “hard” in this definition.
Math is pretty solid
Not really. Psychology has a massive reproducibility issue right now.
You’re right, all other fields have been completely unaffected!
Psychology stands out with how many results are not reproducible.
While in physics, we can fundamentally change our theoretical understanding of very core concepts without impacting the reproducibility of experiments, and any new theory must also satisfy existing, reproducible experiments.
Same goes for chemistry, computer science, geology, etc. You can discover differences in core, fundamental concepts without invalidating existing experiments.